“Dom. XV p. Trin.” = Der 15. Tag nach Trinitatis ??

Vielen Dank an alle, die meine Vermutung überprüfen kann:

In die Bücher: Kommunikanten, gibt es den Titel für den Tag: "Dom. XV p. Trin." Hat übersetzen dies als "Der 15. Tag nach Trinitatis" oder auf Englisch, "the 15th Day after Trinity" ??

Im Jahr 1797 ist Ostern am 16 April. Trinity am nächsten Sonntag war, den 23 April, dann 15 Sonntagen danach war 13 August.

Kalender für April 1797: http://introibo.net/kalender.php?mensis=4&anno=1797#kalender

Kalender für August 1797: http://introibo.net/kalender.php?mensis=8&anno=1797#kalender

Danke für Ihre Hilfe. Ich möchte sicher sein, dass ich das richtige Datum haben.

(Ich verwende Google-Übersetzer aus dem Englischen)

-Joe

 
Joe,

no need to "assume" anything. ;)

I already provided the information you're looking for here:

https://www.archion.de/de/forum/?tx...age]=2&cHash=4a384416314ceb09ad5e574bd49ddcb6

15.09.2016
10:24Uhr

Other than that see here:

http://www.archion.de/p/ba1e56a7e9/

(Kommunikanten Verzeichnis = List of people attending the Holy Communion)

#22 Georg Kohl
#23 Barb. (Barbara) ux. (uxor = Ehefrau = wife)

attended the Holy Communion (Abendmahl) on

Dom. (Dominica = Sonntag = Sunday) XV (15) p. (post = nach = after) Trin. (Trinitatis = Trinity Sunday) in the church at Thss: (Thansuess)
= 24. September 1797

(The year can be found on image #1 - right at the top.)

It's not the 15th day after Trinity, but the 15th Sunday after Trinity Sunday.


Vera
 
Vera,

I am embarrassed :( for not remembering that you outlined that date for Georg & Barbara. I have now copied all of your messages into a Word file for later reference. But now that I went through the process myself, I can do it (hopefully now correctly) next time. I have been mapping all of the individuals with family names by date in Excel, in preparation for later to "connect the dots" when/if I find a birth or marriage record connecting them,

I do have a few more questions:

1. in the Kommunikanten records, I understand the abbreviations: uxor = wife, and vid.= widow(er) and fil = child, but what is "agric" and "ane" [or "aue"] and "frat" (frat = brother?)??

2. There are similar names and I wonder if in your experience you find mis-spellings by the scribes? For example Pruckner looks similar to Prikner and Bruckner. These are three spellings that look distinct and I have seen each of them multiple times in the records in the tiny village of Thansuess.

3. Similar Question to #2, In that document that you showed me that listed the families who occupied the various houses in Thansuess: Georg Kohl married Barbara Pruckner, and they moved into house #35 that was previously occupied by the family Bruckner. Do you wonder if that was also Barbara Pruckner's family?

4. in the Kommunikanten records, I can see that when a horizontal line follows a person's name, that means that the same last name is repeated. And do I understand correctly that when there is "fil" following that horizontal line, that the child is likely the child of the person above? But I also noticed that sometimes there were children listed in sequence with different last names. I was wondering if the author of the list was writing down the names in the order in which the people received communion. This might mean that the people next to each other on the list were probably seated together or near each other in the church. Does that seem like it is the situation? And we know that often people seated near one another in church are often family and friends. Since these are just lists of names, I am trying to seek out a means that may suggest relationships.

5. At this time in the past, was there a typical age at which the children began to receive communion? I did notice that each year there was listed those receiving Catechism/1st Communion.

6. I was looking in the Thansuess Kommunikanten records earlier than 1797 Dom. XV p. Trin (back through 1793) to see if I could find a listing of Georg and Barbara together but I don't see any. The one you found is the oldest, (and we know they married probably that same year too). Also I looked for Barbara Pruckner and I am not seeing her either, only Lorenz, his uxor, Phillipp who could be Lorenz's son (those three are often listed together), and Dorothea who always listed separately, and then Jacob Prikner appears from time to time. If Georg Kohl came from Mantel, perhaps Barbara Pruckner was from Mantel too?

My apologies for the length, but I find this all so fascinating. My Day Job is suffering as I am too distracted with the detective work ! Thank You,
Joe
 
Hallo Joe,

der XV Dom. p Trin. ist gleich 15. Sonntag nach Trinitatis.

Vielleicht hilft es dir weiter.

viel Spaß bei der Familienforschung.

Lothar aus Lingen
 
Joe,

I promise to reply to your whole bunch of questions probably this evening since it's way to much to be done "in a minute". Please also understand that I can't analyse each and everything regarding your ancestors history/situation...
So let's start with something "simple":

1. in the Kommunikanten records, I understand the abbreviations: uxor = wife, and vid.= widow(er) and fil = child, but what is "agric" and "ane" [or "aue"] and "frat" (frat = brother?)??

As you for sure already know these are abbreviations for Latin words:

uxor
viduus/vidua
filius/filia
"ane" needs to read: anc = ancilla = Magd = servant
"frat" = frater = Bruder = brother
sor = soror = Schwester = sister
and a couple more...
Sometimes the scribe added the profession after the name of a male as well.

Where do you see "agric" - please post a Permalink to that entry.

As far as Barbara Pruckner/Bruckner is concerned you need to look for her in earlier Holy Communion records.
i.e. see here:

(in file: Kommunikanten 1777-1789)

Dom. (Dominica) Mis. (Misericordia) Dom. (Dominus)
Catechumeni

#12 Barbara Prucknerin, von (from) Thß. (Thansuess)

http://www.archion.de/p/c45bacb95d/


That should already answer your question where she's from = Thansuess.

Your Georg Kohl married into the Pruckner/Bruckner family from Thansuess.


Later, Vera
 
Vera,
Thank you for your quick response. Please, I do not want to impose on you too much. I am super appreciative of your help so far, and I know your time is valuable. I'm not asking you to do the research for me. The reason for my questions are to get a sense of the data presented in the records. Having spent a lot of time on the U.S. Federal Census, I can tell you that the last names are terribly misspelled, the first names are sometimes wrong, and the ages are almost never correct.

I have been looking further back and I see Barbara Pruckner listed. I am not seeing any spelling for "Bruckner" in these records for Thansuess, but I have seen that name elsewhere. Here http://www.archion.de/p/ff47c70a9a/ she appears to be a servant. She is listed between the Lorenz Pruckner family and the Johann Kohl family. So I am assuming she is a servant in the Lorenz family (maybe her uncle?) If it was her father I should think it would have said "fil" and not "anc". This record also shows that the elder Johann Kohl had a wife named "Barb."
 
Vera,

Wow, I think I found Barbara Pruckner's family:
I would be thankful if you could glance at these and confirm my understanding. You don't feel the need to translate the entire item:

from 28 Feb 1777, Thansuess
[see #22]
http://www.archion.de/p/c4dd14c188/
I can't read Anna's second name? Anna Dorothea? There is an Anna Dorothea Pruckner who lived from 1778-1843, who would have been a contemporary of Barbara, maybe a sister of Barbara if she was born one year after this list was made. This is the death record for the younger Dorothea:[see #2] http://www.archion.de/p/92e98bc1c2/
Does this say that the father was Philipp Pruckner? Reversing her age at death, puts her birth at January 4, 1778. So this could be Barbara's sister, and it looks like she never married. [for reference Barbara Pruckner-Kohl lived 1771-1829.] However there is what looks like another Anna Dorothea here: http://www.archion.de/p/4e12aafd7c/ married to Jacob. Does this last name look like "Pruckner?"
1 more :): This is the note for Lorenz Pruckner's family. I see in the Communion records that he and his wife are listed regularly, and a Philipp is with them often listed as "fil" There is some text above and next to Philipp's name in this record that I do not understand. If you can understand it, can you let me know what it says?: [see#26]
http://www.archion.de/p/a3a6b2e114/

My conclusion is that probably that Barbara P-Kohl was the daughter of Philipp and Ann __ Pruckner. She had a brother named Gottfried (who so far I have not found in the Communion Records, but I have not finished looking) and a sister named Dorothea. There were two other Pruckner families in Thansuess and maybe they are related: One lead by Jacob Pruckner, does not appear in the communion records after 1796, and Lorenz who disappears about 1797 (I still have a few more to look through) These two Pruckners might possibly be Barbara's uncles but we do not know for sure yet.

Thanks,
-Joe
 
Good evening Joe,

day schedule finished way later than anticipated: 9:30PM already.
So, I'll defer my promised reply to your questions and to your most recent help request regarding Barbara Pruckner's family til tomorrow morning.

Vera
 
Joe,

Vera,

Wow, I think I found Barbara Pruckner's family:
I would be thankful if you could glance at these and confirm my understanding. You don't feel the need to translate the entire item:

from 28 Feb 1777, Thansuess
[see #22]
http://www.archion.de/p/c4dd14c188/
I can't read Anna's second name? Anna Dorothea? There is an Anna Dorothea Pruckner who lived from 1778-1843, who would have been a contemporary of Barbara, maybe a sister of Barbara if she was born one year after this list was made.

22.) Philipp Pruckner
Anna Dorothea ux. (wife!)
Barbara fil. (filia = daughter) Gottfried fil. (filius = son)


This is the death record for the younger Dorothea:[see #2] http://www.archion.de/p/92e98bc1c2/
Does this say that the father was Philipp Pruckner? Reversing her age at death, puts her birth at January 4, 1778. So this could be Barbara's sister, and it looks like she never married. [for reference Barbara Pruckner-Kohl lived 1771-1829.]

Anna Dorothea Pruckner, hinterlassene eheliche Tochter des
weiland Philipp Pruckner, Inwohners zu Thansüß starb an den
Folgen der Epilepsie, womit sie seit vielen Jahren beschwert
war, am 4ten Februar, morgens um 6 Uhr, und wurde am
6ten begraben. 65 Jahre ud: 1 Monat alt. Ohne ärtzliche Behandlung.

Answer to your question: yes.
"ärtzliche" = ärztliche = medical / ärztliche Behandlung = medical attention/treatment

However there is what looks like another Anna Dorothea here: http://www.archion.de/p/4e12aafd7c/ married to Jacob. Does this last name look like "Pruckner?"

15.) Jacob Pruckner
Anna Dorothea ux. (wife!)
Margaretha fil. (filia = daughter)

Answer to your question: yes, sure.


1 more :): This is the note for Lorenz Pruckner's family. I see in the Communion records that he and his wife are listed regularly, and a Philipp is with them often listed as "fil" There is some text above and next to Philipp's name in this record that I do not understand. If you can understand it, can you let me know what it says?: [see#26]
http://www.archion.de/p/a3a6b2e114/

First, don't consider Communion records to always list a family, unless it's more or less obvious by finding relationships mentioned, like filius/filia/frater/soror/uxor or the like.

As to the entry:

26.) Lorenz Pruckner M. Schneider (master tailor)
Anna Marg. ux. (uxor = wife)
Catharina Thonhornin (Thonhorn) eine Hure (a whore = an unmarried woman who gave birth to an illegitimate child; see immidiately following line)
Philipp Kummer fil. (filius=son) spur. (spurius=illegimate) ejusd. (ejusdem = in this context: of hers)

The text above Lorenz Pruckner's name has nothing to do with him. It provides the name of a female being an "anc." = ancilla = servant

(BTW You didn't so far provide the Permalink to the entries where you found "agric."...)


My conclusion is that probably that Barbara P-Kohl was the daughter of Philipp and Ann __ Pruckner. She had a brother named Gottfried (who so far I have not found in the Communion Records, but I have not finished looking) and a sister named Dorothea.

Yes, that's correct.
Cross-check the files "Alphabetisches Register zu...." = alphabetical index...

When you decide to do so: please be extremely careful not to mix up the families Pruckner/Bruckner (or the like) with Birckner!!

Vera
 
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