Help with 3 things to complete my research in Thansüß

[FloridaGerman1]

I am amazed at how generous the people in this forum have been to help me with my research. I have 3 remaining items that I hope someone can help me with to finish up (for now).

1. Birth of Paulus Kohl, (Am I missing any details?) http://www.archion.de/p/14f315d3da/

9. Thansüß
Kohl, Johann Paulus, legitimate son of the master weaver Johann Gottfried Kohl from Thansüß and his wife Anna Elisabeth nee Krauss _____ was born on April 13, (1841) at 11 o’clock in the night and baptized on the 17th, in Thansuss _____. Sponsor Johann Kohl, webermeister in Mantel, ________. Midwife: Herbst.

2. Barbara Kohl’s illegitimate daughter Barbara Herbst, (Who was the father? Most of this I cannot understand) http://www.archion.de/p/953437dc85/

1. Thansüß ______ 10 January, 1 pm in the afternoon was born Barbara, ______ daughter of Barbara Kohl, the daughter of Georg Kohl, the webermeister from Thansüß, ___________
____Sabina Herbst ?? _______ Michael Herbst_____________Kaltenbrunn____________
Thansüß ________________________________________________ Midwife: Harrer.

From the Wisconsin family records, Barbara’s father was Paulus Herbst, who immigrated to Milwaukee with his wife Barbara Kohl and two of her brothers. The daughter became a nurse and married a Jewish patient from the hospital. The family had many children, and are well documented.

3. Andreas Kohl’s Death, (Can you see his cause of death?) http://www.archion.de/p/dddcfac6dc/
In this forum, sil2910 (Silke) helped me with this, but she was not able to read the cause of death. Maybe someone else can make sense of it?

22. Thansüß
Kohl, Andreas, legitimate son of the master weaver Gottfried Kohl from Thansüß and his wife Anna Elisabeth nee Krauss _____ was born on October 31, (1843) at 10 o’clock in the morning. ___
___________ Sponsor Andreas Wolfgang Schmidt, Meister _____. Hunmmer ?? 35. Midwife: Lurtner. or Lertner ??

-------
I have been posting my research on a website called WikiTree.com. I like it because it is accessible to everyone (no fees) and there is plenty of room to write information into profiles. Here is a link to Friederich Kohl if you are not familiar with the site. http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Kohl-484 The main idea is for everyone to collaborate on one family tree, to show how everyone is connected in the world.

Thank You with my total gratitude,
Joseph Kohl, Great Great Great Grandson of the Webermeister Georg Kohl of Thansüß, Bavaria

 

[vnagel2004]

Good morning Joe,

@ 1. Birth of Paulus Kohl

9. Thansüß
(Anmerkung: Nach Nordamerika ausgewandert)
Kohl, Johann Paulus, ehelicher Sohn des Webermeisters Johann Gottfried
Kohl zu Thansüß und seines Eheweibes Anna Elisabetha, einer gebor-
nen Krauß daselbst, ward geboren den 13. April, Nachts um
11 Uhr, und am 17. im Pfarrhause getauft. Taufpath soll seyn:
Johann Kohl, Webersgesell in Mantel, des Kindes Vaters
Bruder. In deßen Abwesenheit vertrat die Stelle: Johann Faust,
Meßner dahier. Nr. 35. Hebamme: Herbst


@ 2. Barbara Kohl’s illegitimate daughter Barbara Herbst

1828
1. Thansüß Donnerstags den 10 Januar, Abends 1 Uhr unehelich
wurde gebohren Barbara, ein uneheliches Kind der Barbara Kohl, des
Georg Kohl, Weber Meisters zu Thansüß, jüngerer Tochter. Als Taufpath wurde
erwählet: Barbara Herbst, des weil. Michael Herbst, gewesenen Nachtwächters
in Kaltenbrunn, hinterlassene mittlere Tochter, steht gegenwärtig zu Ehren-
rieth in Diensten. Getauft wurde am nämlichen Tage im Schulhause zu
Thansüß. Nr. 34. natürlich schwere Geburt. Hebamme Herrer.
(Anmerkung: Als Vater wurde angegeben
Paulus Herbst, Dienstknecht
zu Kaltenbrunn)


@ 3. Andreas Kohl’s Death

The provided link points to #1 "Birth of Paulus Kohl" and not to any birth record for Andreas Kohl, sorry.


Due to your wonderful expertise in translating such records I'm providing detailed transcriptions only. In case any questions may arise, please feel free to ask.

Vera

 

[vnagel2004]

A litte remark:
Please look up your previous 2 posts/topics as well, I replied regarding the said to be "w:" which actually reads "[bold]ud:[/bold]"

Thanks.

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Vera, what is "Meßner dahier" in your transcription: "Johann Faust,
Meßner dahier. Nr. 35. Hebamme: Herbst" -from the last line in Paul's birth record.

and also, do you know what the Nr. 35 signifies? I've seen that in the other birth records too with different numbers.

Thanks, Joseph

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Vera, How do you think this is for a translation: ?

-I am not sure about the text in bold:

1. Thansüß, On Thursday January 10th at 1 pm in the afternoon was illegitimately born Barbara, an illegitimate child of Barbara Kohl, the younger daughter of Georg Kohl, the master weaver from Thansuss, Sponsors: Barbara Herbst, Michael Herbst former watchman in Kaltenbrunn, the left-behind middle daughter [but he wrote younger daughter above??] works in service in Ehrenrieth, was baptized on the same day in the school house in Thansüß No. 34. The birth ran a difficult course. Midwife Herrer.
(Note: As a father was given Paul Herbst, service farmhand from Kaltenbrunn)

Thank you,
Joseph

 

[vnagel2004]

Vera, what is "Meßner dahier" in your transcription: "Johann Faust,
Meßner dahier. Nr. 35. Hebamme: Herbst" -from the last line in Paul's birth record.

Joe, please look up my reply to your request for help here:
https://www.archion.de/de/forum/?tx...=Topic&cHash=026289c20d8c88c63c0d80c3aba96254

...the Meßner, Johann Faust, appears there as well, and as you will easily find, I provided a translation to English

...and also, do you know what the Nr. 35 signifies? I've seen that in the other birth records too with different numbers.

I think these are house numbers - possibly where the family resided upon the recorded event.

You're welcome, Vera

 

[vnagel2004]

Joe,

regarding your translation for Barbara Kohl's illegitimate child. Yes, really good, however: no, I'm sorry... so I modified / corrected some things.

1828

(Note: illegitimate)

1. Thansüß, On Thursday January 10th at 1 am in the night (literally: evening) was born Barbara, an illegitimate child of Barbara Kohl, the younger daughter of Georg Kohl, master weaver at/in Thansüß.
Sponsor: Barbara Herbst, the surviving middle daughter of the late Michael Herbst, former watchman in Kaltenbrunn, at the time being working in service in Ehrenrieth. (The child) Was baptized / Baptism on the same day in the school house in Thansüß. No. 34. (It was a) Natural difficult birth. Midwife Herrer.
(Note: As a father was given Paul Herbst, service farmhand in Kaltenbrunn)


Please take a look at the original church book record again. This entry is explicitly outlined/marked by an extra note "unehelich" / illegitimate which is not part of the other text.

In order to correctly substitute German umlauted or German special characters....
ä = ae
ö = oe
ü = ue
ß = ss

...that said:

Thansüß = Thansuess, but never Thansuss


Vera

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Vera, thank you!
I will take more care in the future with my unehelich translations.

Regarding those numbers in the records. I think you are correct about the house numbers. they seem to match the numbers in this old map of Thansuess from 1839. click to the bottom of the two maps.... https://www.bayerische-landesbibliothek-online.de/ortsblaetter/suche?id=1792 That is so awesome if we know where the ancestors lived! Georg and Barbara would have lived at #34, and Friederich and Elisabeth would have lived at #35. (Next to each other and at the center of town.) If they owned their homes, then this family would likely be an old Thansuess family, since their home is at a prominent location. If they were renting their homes, then that might not be true.

I am so happy with all this new information!

Best wishes,
Joe

 

[vnagel2004]

...Georg and Barbara would have lived at #34, and Friederich and Elisabeth would have lived at #35. (Next to each other and at the center of town.) If they owned their homes, then this family would likely be an old Thansuess family, since their home is at a prominent location. If they were renting their homes, then that might not be true....

Joe,

yes, these numbers are house numbers indeed.

However, carefull carefull with any conclusions prior to further research.
Your Kohl family obviously originated -or better said: once resided- in Mantel, not in Thansüß. Your "Georg Kohl family episode" in Thansüß was a rather short one, since Georg Kohl came to Thansüß not earlier than 1797 (by marriage; from Mantel) and the family already emigrated to the U.S. in 1845.
I doubt that the Kohls ever owned either #34 nor #35. Seems to me they were lodgers/tenants at both locations.

The house name of #35 was "Fritschen".

In order to learn more download this PDF file "Thansüß - ein typisches Straßendorf" (Thansuess - a typical village stretching out at a road") and i.e. look at page #14

http://www.familienforschung-kunz-weiden.de/Thansuess - typisches Strassendorf.pdf

House number 30 was a "Kohl house" as well - about 1646 a Georg Kohl from Seugast "married into" this estate. However, there's absolutely no further indication so far that this family is related to yours.

All the best, Vera

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Vera,
Thank you for that information. I am very excited to see it. I will examine the document further. I agree about taking caution, and I am usually very cautious about jumping to conclusions as fact, unlike some of my American cousins who post erroneous information on Ancestry.com. I like to come up with possibilities and use them as possible scenarios when searching for the truth.

I like that this document explains the transformation of the town's name. The named referenced by Friederich Kohl ('Tiensie' is what is recorded in the family history) as his birthplace to his grandchildren was one of the older names, which explains why the family hasn't been able to find it. That would mean the old names were still in use, even though Thansuess was already used by the Church

At first glance I think there is one error in this document, either by the author or from the original record: It is written that in House #35 there was Georg Kohl who was from Mantel and who left for North America in 1845. From the Church Records we know that Georg Kohl (my 3x Great Grandfather) died in 1841, and he was married in Thansuess before 1880. It was the family of Johann Kohl, my 2x Great grandfather (son of Georg), that lived in Mantel, married to the Catholic family Gerstner. Once I can find the older marriage records for Georg (not found yet), we should be able to trace the family further back.

I think we will find that Johann Kohl was born in Thansuess, because his parents were married there, and his brother and sister have records there. And from the birth records that you helped me with, we know that it was the children of Gottfried/Friederich Kohl were born in House #35 in the 1830s & 40s.

I will study the document further. This is just awesome! Thank you for finding that and sending it to me. The format looks similar to another document I found some time ago, that lead me to Thansuess: http://www.familienforschung-kunz-weiden.de/Auswanderer Pf. Kaltenbrunn.pdf


-Joe

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Looking back at House #35 in this "new" document that you sent me:

1797 is about the time that Georg Kohl and Barbara Prueckner were married. (No record yet) So this could mean that Georg married in Thansuess but he originated from Mantel before that. Then the only error would be that Georg did not leave for North America.

If the children were born in Thansuess, then they stayed there, except for Johann who later moved to Mantel when he married. Then all of them (alive) left for North America in 1845. There were 21 family members who all emigrated together.

Interesting,
Joe

 

[vnagel2004]

...1797 is about the time that Georg Kohl and Barbara Prueckner were married. (No record yet) So this could mean that Georg married in Thansuess but he originated from Mantel before that. Then the only error would be that Georg did not leave for North America.....

Joe,

the document to which I pointed you yesterday says that Georg Kohl "married into the estate Thansuess #35 in 1797".
In other words in 1797 he got married to a lady who's family resided at Thansuess #35 at that time and moved to Thansuess #35 (from Mantel, where he resided prior to being married.

Sorry, but there is no error in that document since it does not at all say, that Georg Kohl himself emigrated to the U.S. in 1845. Instead the document only indicates that the Kohl family residing at Thansuess #35 emigrated in 1845.

Other than that see here:

http://www.archion.de/p/ba1e56a7e9/

(Kommunikanten Verzeichnis = List of people attending the Holy Communion)

#22 Georg Kohl
#23 Barb. (Barbara) ux. (uxor = Ehefrau = wife)

attended the Holy Communion (Abendmahl) on

Dom. (Dominica = Sonntag = Sunday) XV (15) p. (post = nach = after) Trin. (Trinitatis = Trinity Sunday) in the church at Thss: (Thansuess)
= 24. September 1797

(The year can be found on image #1 - right at the top.)

So you can easily and safely conclude that their marriage was prior to that. Since otherwise they wouldn't have been listed as a married couple.

I agree that finding Georg Kohl's and Barbara Prueckner's marriage record would be the next step to trace the Kohl family roots further back.
In order to do so you might consider to contact the Landeskirchliches Archiv in Nürnberg / Nuremberg and ask for help. Be aware that they will charge for their service.
Contact data can be found at the bottom of this website:
http://www.archiv-elkb.de/

Or you simply wait until more digitized records of interest become available here.

Vera

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Thank you Vera, for setting me straight with a better translation.

I can proceed with confidence that I need to learn more from Mantel.

-Joe

 

[vnagel2004]

You're welcome, Joe.

As an aside: I trust you'll update your very nice "wikitree" since Georg Kohl did not "marry into the estate #30", but instead into #35.

Georg Kohl's marriage record in Thansuess (in 1797) - to be found within the holdings of the Nuremberg archive - will (besides other details) provide the names of his parents.
This information is "required" to find the correct birth/baptism entry (possibly) in Mantel.

BTW Do you already know where to find church registers for Mantel?
In case not so, don't hesitate to ask.

Vera

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Vera, thank you for seeing that error in my WikiTree profile. It has been corrected.

For Mantel I do not know where to find the church registers. I did not find Mantel on Archion, but geographically I am still fresh.

Almost 1 year ago in October 2015, I requested information from the Catholic Archives in Regensburg for anything on Johann Kohl and Barbara Gerstner in Mantel. They charge for the service, but they have so many requests that they are responding to requests from one year ago. I am still waiting.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Vera, thank you for seeing that error in my WikiTree profile. It has been corrected.

For Mantel I do not know where to find the church registers. I did not find Mantel on Archion, but geographically I am still fresh.

Almost 1 year ago in October 2015, I requested information from the Catholic Archives in Regensburg for anything on Johann Kohl and Barbara Gerstner in Mantel. They charge for the service, but they have so many requests that they are responding to requests from one year ago. I am still waiting.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Vera, thank you for seeing that error in my WikiTree profile. It has been corrected.

For Mantel I do not know where to find the church registers. I did not find Mantel on Archion, but geographically I am still fresh.

Almost 1 year ago in October 2015, I requested information from the Catholic Archives in Regensburg for anything on Johann Kohl and Barbara Gerstner in Mantel. They charge for the service, but they have so many requests that they are responding to requests from one year ago. I am still waiting.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Vera, thank you for seeing that error in my WikiTree profile. It has been corrected.

For Mantel I do not know where to find the church registers. I did not find Mantel on Archion, but geographically I am still fresh.

Almost 1 year ago in October 2015, I requested information from the Catholic Archives in Regensburg for anything on Johann Kohl and Barbara Gerstner in Mantel. They charge for the service, but they have so many requests that they are responding to requests from one year ago. I am still waiting.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[vnagel2004]

...For Mantel I do not know where to find the church registers. I did not find Mantel on Archion, but geographically I am still fresh.

Almost 1 year ago in October 2015, I requested information from the Catholic Archives in Regensburg for anything on Johann Kohl and Barbara Gerstner in Mantel. They charge for the service, but they have so many requests that they are responding to requests from one year ago. I am still waiting.

Joe,

church registers for Mantel are part of the holdings of the Catholic Archives in Regensburg (Bischöfliches Zentralarchiv Regensburg) - be it for Lutherans or for Catholics.

This is a specific situation due to the fact that Mantel (as several other places as well) had a so-called "simultaneous church" (German: Simultankirche) - say a church which was attended by Lutherans and Catholics at the same time. That said church registers are "mixed ones" as well.

Go to this website
http://www.bistum-regensburg.de/die...g-einblicke-in-die-familiengeschichte/#c12025

....then in the text (topic: Geschichte und Bestand der Kirchenbücher / History and holdings of church registers) click on the link "Kirchenbücher der Diözese Regensburg" and you'll end up here (a downloadable PDF file)
http://www.bistum-regensburg.de/fileadmin/redakteur/PDF/Pfarrbuecherverzeichnis_01.pdf

Then simply search this PDF file for: Mantel

...and you'll learn which church registers will be of special interest during different time frames. In your case the church registers of Neunkirchen in der Oberpfalz should be your starting point.

I didn't know so far that this archive has such long processing times regarding genealogical requests. But well staff capacities are limited all over the globe, right?

So what about considering to contact somebody residing in Regensburg (in order to reduce additional travel charges) who helps with such requests?

see i.e. here:
http://ahnenforschung-bistum-regensburg.blogspot.de/p/kontakt.html

I don't know this gentleman at all and I'm not affiliated with him in any way.
He will for sure also charge for his services and I don't know how much.
As a starting point I'd not place a request along the lines "I want to learn everything about xyz....", but always limit it based on definite dates / events regarding the family of interest.
May be it's worth a try....

And again(!): The archive in Nuremberg is extremely important to contact regarding Georg Kohl's and Barbara Pruckner's marriage in 1797 in Thansuess.
Before you don't have that record it's more or less fishing in the dark in any Mantel church register.

Good luck, Vera

 

[FloridaGerman1]

Thank you again Vera for your help. It is great to know that there will be more to discover. If you ever come to Miami, look me up. I at least owe you dinner!
-Joe